SOPHIE'S WORLD
(Sofies verden), by Jostein Gaarder (JG), translated from Norwegian into American by Paulette Møller (PM)Guestbook | Guestmap | Discussion forum | Inspired by...
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| CH = chapter, P = page, L = line, C = comment, N = Norwegian, T = (alternative) translation, usually closer to the original text, TTR = Two-Tier Reality (metaphysical system bridging East and West) |
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CHAPTER 9: PLATO (PP67-79) |
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| Title: a longing to return to the (T: proper) realm of the soul | ||||||||
| P67 L10: nuts T: crazy L26: she was not an expert pastry cook (T: no professional baker); sometimes the kitchen looked as if a bomb had hit it T: sometimes things went badly awry | ||||||||
| P68 L3: Then (T: Suddenly) a satisfied (T: cunning/knowing) smile L10: remembered the (T: gingerbread) incident L15: all horses were the same T: alike L19: No one of them was exactly like any of the others T: None of them were completely alike either L21: in a way T: in a sense L26: all horses had something in common C: What all horses have in common is that we call them horses L31: Sophie felt quite unqualified (T: unable) to answer L34: a person consisted of two separate parts T: two very different parts L37: It was only her body that was old T: that had aged | ||||||||
| P69 L2: Socrates had pointed out (T: asserted) that everyone could understand philosophical truths if they just used their common sense (T: reason) C: No L3: He had also said that a slave had the same common sense (T: same ability to solve philosophical questions) as a nobleman L5: he would also have said that women had the same common sense (T: reason) as men C: But apparently he didn't. Did S. ever think about women? L23: Sophie was not to be deterred T: would not give up L30: for what seemed like an eternity T: for a long time L36: Thank you for the pleasant time we spent together N: Takk for sist T: Thanks for (the) last (meeting) C: Polite Scandinavian formula with little personal content L38: without further ado T: straight away | ||||||||
| P70 L1: Socrates drank (T: had to drink) the hemlock L5: philosophic endeavo(u)r T: activity L7: society as it really is T: actual society L11: hardly any of their written material remains T: most of this written material has been lost L26: The Eternally True, Eternally Beautiful, and Eternally Good C: do not exist L38: Very briefly T: By and large | ||||||||
| P7l L1: (The Sophists thought that) ... right and wrong was something that 'flowed' C: Yes L3: (Socrates) believed in the existence of eternal and absolute rules for what was right or (T: and) wrong C: No L5: human reason is ... eternal and immutable C: Meaning? L8: To Plato, these two problems were one and the same C: No L9: (Plato) tried to grasp a 'reality' that was eternal and immutable C: Primary reality (TTR). But (TTR) 'primary reality' cannot be positively described - it just is. (In negative terms, it is unbounded in time and space, with no internal divisions) L11(cont): And to be quite frank (T: truth to tell). that is ... what we need (T: have) philosophers for L12(cont): We do not need them to choose (T: They are not concerned with choosing) a beauty queen L13: Philosophers ... try to draw people's attention to (T: try to show) what is eternally 'true', eternally 'beautiful', and eternally 'good' C: Fortunately, not all philosophers are Platonists L17: We can thus begin to glimpse at least the outline T: That gives us an outline L18: We are attempting (T: trying) to understand an extraordinary mind (T: a wonderful line of thought) that was to have a profound influence on all subsequent European philosophy C: Unfortunately L22: drawn attention to the fact T: asserted L23: everything 'flows' T: all natural phenomena 'flow' L25: Plato agreed with the proposition as such T: the presentation of the problem L26: Plato believed that everything (C: every thing) tangible in nature 'flows' C: Right L26(cont): So there are no 'substances' that do not dissolve C: Wrong. A substance is not a thing L27(cont): Absolutely everything that belongs to the 'material (T: sensible) world' is made of a material that time can erode (T: time erodes), but everything is (T: also) made after (T: from/fashioned after) a timeless mo(u)ld or 'form' that is eternal and immutable C: No. L32: probably T: perhaps L33: something that all horses have in common, something that enables us to identify them as horses T: something which means that we will never have problems in pointing out a horse C: Whether we call a particular animal a 'horse' is a human decision based on human definitions of the word 'horse' - and our experience of horses L36: the 'form' of the horse is eternal and immutable C: No L39: spiritual and (T: or) abstract | ||||||||
| P72 L1: things T: phenomena L2: a reasonably good explanation T: reasonable L3: presuppose T: assume L8: suddenly C: Why 'suddenly'? L11: fashioned themselves into T: became L12: going T: in train L15: You build a Lego horse C: a Lego horse is not a real horse L17: How could Lego blocks of their own accord find one another T: blocks manage to fit together again L18: you have to rebuild the horse C: The second horse may be different L19: you have a picture in your mind of what the horse looked like C: Perhaps only an approximate or general picture L20(cont): The Lego horse is made from a model which remains unchanged from horse to horse C: No. And in any case, one child's Lego horse is different from another's L22: How did you do? T: How did it go? L24: stumble T: slip L24: catch sight of (T: see) fifty identical gingerbread men C: If there are bits missing (LL16-19), how can they be identical? L29: All (T: the/these) gingerbread men have something in common C: Right. They are all made of the same substance, gingerbread, which can have no inherent form L30: they had a common origin C: Perhaps L32: formed in the same mold C: Perhaps - or in two similar moulds? Anyway, who wants mouldy gingerbread men? L33: the mold itself must be utter perfection T: inexpressibly more perfect C: Utter nonsense L36: the ... solution T: a ... solution L38: Like most philosophers, (Plato) 'dropped in from outer space' C: Stop rabbiting, ET, and go home L39: He was astonished at the way all natural phenomena could be so alike C: Eh?! L41: there are a limited number of forms 'behind' everything we see around us C: No | ||||||||
| P73 L1: Behind every horse ... there is the 'idea horse' C: No L5: one mold is enough for each type of gingerbread cookie C: But there may be more than one mould L7: there must be a reality behind the 'material world' T: the 'world of the senses' C: Yes, but not Plato's L12: True (T: Certain) Knowledge L16: in the same way T: in that way L18: train of thought T: argument L18: A philosopher, as we have seen (T: said), tries to grasp something that is eternal and immutable C: Rather like catching eels with one's bare hands L23: difficult to find a market C: Not all philosophers are anxious to find a market L27: nothing that exists in the world of the senses is lasting C: True, but then, no-thing (that exists) lasts for ever L32: we can never have true (T: certain) knowledge of anything that is in a constant state of change C: False. 'This thing is in a constant state of change': that statement conveys certain knowledge about the thing, whatever it may be. (That's my opinion, anyway.) L34: we can only have true knowledge of things that can be understood (T: that we see/understand) with our reason C: All knowledge is more or less a matter of opinion | ||||||||
| P74 L1: successful T: perfect L2: I can guess (T: deduce) L5: We can rely on what our reason tells us (C: As with our senses, not always) because that is the same for everyone C: No L9 if (the teacher) asks what 8 times 3 is, the whole class will - we hope - give the same answer C: 'We don't know, Sir. Do you?' L11: Because now reason is speaking C: Reason? Or rote learning? L11: reason is, in a way, the direct opposite of 'thinking so' or (T: and) 'feeling' C: No. Alberto may well trust his reason, but why should anyone else? L12: reason is eternal and universal (C: No) ... because it only expresses eternal and universal states C: Such nonsense! Reason expresses nothing: people express. People - those strange mixtures of inextricably intertwining reason and sentiment and instinct. L15: Mathematical states (T: ratios/proportions) never change L16(cont): They are therefore states (T: This is therefore something) we can have true (T: certain) knowledge of L20: You cannot have true (T: certain) knowledge of anything you (can) perceive with your eyes C: Wrong L22: you can say with absolute certainty that the sum of the angles in a circle is 360 degrees C: Eh?! A circle has no angles - and Alberto is no mathematician L25: an ideal circle (C: a mathematical circle) which might not (C: does not) exist in the physical world C: Misconceived comparison between gingerbread-man moulds and ideal/mathematical circles. And Alberto tells us nothing about the sum of the angles in a gingerbread man L29: we can only have inexact (T: uncertain) conceptions of things we perceive with our senses C: Inexact statements may still be true L31: The sum of the angles in a triangle (C: a mathematical triangle on a Euclidean plane) will remain 180 degrees to the end of time C: More accurately, for as long as we continue to divide a right angle into 90 degrees (convention, not 'eternal law'). More formally, the sum of the angles in a triangle is equal to two right angles L35: Plato believed that reality is divided into two regions (T: into two) L36: One region (T: part) is the world of the senses about which we can only have approximate or incomplete knowledge C: Our knowledge of the world can never be 'complete'; we cannot know everything there is to know about a person or even about the simplest (real) object. However, our 'incomplete' knowledge may still be true, because we decide what is true or not true. (The truth is not 'out there' but 'in here') L37(cont): by using our five (approximate or incomplete) senses C: Our senses are neither approximate nor incomplete L39: Nothing in the sensory world is, there are only things which come to be and pass away C: Everything in the sensory world is, however briefly | ||||||||
| P75 L2: The other region (T: part) is the world of ideas, about which we can have true (T: certain) knowledge by using our reason C: No. Different people have (overlapping but) different ideas of what (e.g.) a horse is like L4: The ideas (or forms) are eternal and immutable C: No, not even for simple mathematical concepts. For example, what exactly is a triangle? The three bounding lines or the area they enclose - or both? Ideas differ L9: Our senses are based in the body and are consequently unreliable C: Our senses are not fully reliable (nor our reason), but not as a consequence of being bodily faculties L10: 'An immortal soul' C: and 'a body that flows': Plato's culturally disastrous dichotomy L14: inhabited the body T(cont from original): The soul was once in the world of ideas C: Awake or asleep? L15: as soon as the soul wakes up in a human body C: When? At conception? At birth? Where and when does it sleep? L22: stirs the soul with a yearning to return to its true (T: proper) realm C: Why? It's more fun here L23: Plato calls this yearning eros C: Misuse of word 'eros'? L25: The body and the whole sensory world is experienced as imperfect and insignificant C: Time to consult a physician? L26(cont): The soul yearns to fly home on the wings of love (C: a strange love) to the world of ideas. It longs to be freed from the chains (T: prison) of the body C: A bad case of soul-sickness - the dreadful result of an overdose of Platonism L30: set the soul free C: How? L36: (Plato's) philosophy can be read as a description of philosophic practice C: Mistaken philosophic practice. Faced with Plato's fantasy world of disembodied animals, people can hardly be blamed for treating philosophy with scorn or indifference | ||||||||
| P76 L5: (Most people) think shadows are all there are, never realising even that they are, in fact, shadows T: there are, and so do not experience shadows as shadows C: Was Plato a mere shadow of the 'idea Plato' in the world of ideas? L6(cont): And thus they (T: also) pay no heed to (T: forget) the immortality of their own soul L8: Out of (T: The way up from) the Darkness of the Cave L9: Plato relates a myth (T: an allegory) L14: human-like (T: humanoid) creatures L18: shadow play T: shadow theatre L19: They think these shadows are all there are C: Plus themselves, of course. P76 L20: Imagine now that one of the cave dwellers manages to free himself from his bonds. The first thing he asks himself is (T: To begin with, he asks himself) where all these shadows ... come from T(cont from original): Finally he succeeds in freeing himself C: With one bound? L22: What do you think happens when he turns around ... To begin with, he is dazzled by the sharp sunlight T: He is of course blinded by the strong light C: from the fire L26: if he manages to climb over the wall and get past the fire C: and the creatures L30: flowers that the cave shadows were only poor reflections (T: imitations) of | ||||||||
| P77 L2: Finally they kill him C: With their hands and feet bound? L12: the natural world ... is dark and dreary in comparison with the clarity of (T: the world of) ideas L13: A picture of a beautiful landscape (T: girl) is not dark and dreary either C: Some landscapes are more undulating than others L19: Plato believed the state should be governed by philosophers C: Help! L25: and (T: desire or) appetite L27: Will aspires to courage C: Good old Will! L30: At school, a child must first learn (C: i.e. be forced) to curb its appetites T: desires C: Especially its desire for freedom and integrity L31: reason leads to (T: attains) wisdom L33: the body has head, chest and abdomen C: How about the arms and legs? L34: auxiliaries T: guards/soldiers L36: temperance T: moderation L36: a 'virtuous' state is characterised by everyone knowing their place in the overall picture C: Dangerous concept - the regime of the bee-hive or the ant-nest | ||||||||
| P78 L1: (Plato's) political philosophy is characterised by rationalism C: But irrational rationalism - humans are not insects L1: a good state depends on its being governed with reason ... philosophers must rule society C: With what Plato calls reason? A dismal prospect L9: laborers T: workers L10: Hindu caste system, in which each ... has his or her particular function for the good of the whole C: the 'good' as seen by the ruling caste(s) L14: Nowadays we would perhaps call Plato's state totalitarian C: Only 'perhaps'? L23: Plato was the first philosopher to advocate ... full-time education C: i.e. full-time training and indoctrination. Now you know who to blame, kids L25: setbacks T: disappointments L35: (Plato's) theories T: teachings L37: one of the pupils T: his own pupil | ||||||||
| P79 L3: one man (T: Socrates) clambered out of the cave and blinked in the dazzling (T: strong) light outside C: Was the fire in the cave or outside the cave? JG and PM seem to be uncertain. Was Plato too? L10: the eternal patterns T: forms L10: it was a beautiful thought that all living things were imperfect copies of the eternal forms C: No. One hates to think of Plato as an imperfect copy. How he resembled himself! L12: all flowers, trees, human beings and animals were 'imperfect' C: No; dangerous concept; poor Sophie is being led astray L16: in a hundred years the same flowers and the same animals would be here again C: No. Flowers and animals of the same species, perhaps L19: there would be something that 'recollected' how it all looked C: No. | ||||||||